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	<title>Comments on: 1000 new Aussie churches. Who wants in?</title>
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	<link>http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/07/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html</link>
	<description>Steve Addison's blog about movements for the renewal and expansion of the church.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 14:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/07/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1240</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/06/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1240</guid>
		<description>Just a reminder Dave that the 12 were selected from within the 70/72 and the 120 were following Jesus and not them, at least initially.  It wasn't totally about mathematical multiplication.  Especially when things went from 120 confused and scared followers to 3000 in a day!  There is a bogger dynamic needed then our human efforts (needed as that is).  As you said... 'rushing wind'...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a reminder Dave that the 12 were selected from within the 70/72 and the 120 were following Jesus and not them, at least initially.  It wasn&#8217;t totally about mathematical multiplication.  Especially when things went from 120 confused and scared followers to 3000 in a day!  There is a bogger dynamic needed then our human efforts (needed as that is).  As you said&#8230; &#8216;rushing wind&#8217;...</p>
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		<title>By: David Kueker</title>
		<link>http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/07/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1238</link>
		<dc:creator>David Kueker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/06/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1238</guid>
		<description>I love the idea of planting churches, which does begin with a leader.

That leader, however, would need to be a disciple maker.
And then a maker of disciple makers.
First 12 disciples, then 70, then 120 of them.
Add the sound of a mighty rushing wind, and they might be ready to be called a church.  (And the next day a megachurch.)

I heard an apocryphal story about Korea ages ago, that supposedly when a person applied to be a pastor, they were asked:  where are your converts/disciples/followers?  If they had any, they were then ordained to pastor that flock.  No disciples, no ordination.

As someone ordained in the west and gifted with followers by my appointment to an existing church, this was somewhat of a jarring paradigm.  

Thirty years ago I was once a member of Amway and spent all my time recruiting dealers to serve under me and enrich me, and no time at all selling soap; my dealer organization did the same and soon collapsed.  It's great to build an organization, but underneath it all it's about selling soap to customers.  It's great to talk about planting churches, but underneath it all someone will have to make the disciples or the churches we plant will be empty except for the fool (which is me) standing in the pulpit preaching to the empty pews about the great potential of this church.

It's my soapbox and my sermon to myself, so I'm a little harsh about it because I need the stern accountability.  I spent 24 years in ministry, 11 years in growing churches, and made no disciples; now I have three, and shifting paradigms has been an incredible internal struggle.

Dave</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the idea of planting churches, which does begin with a leader.</p>
<p>That leader, however, would need to be a disciple maker.<br />
And then a maker of disciple makers.<br />
First 12 disciples, then 70, then 120 of them.<br />
Add the sound of a mighty rushing wind, and they might be ready to be called a church.  (And the next day a megachurch.)</p>
<p>I heard an apocryphal story about Korea ages ago, that supposedly when a person applied to be a pastor, they were asked:  where are your converts/disciples/followers?  If they had any, they were then ordained to pastor that flock.  No disciples, no ordination.</p>
<p>As someone ordained in the west and gifted with followers by my appointment to an existing church, this was somewhat of a jarring paradigm.</p>
<p>Thirty years ago I was once a member of Amway and spent all my time recruiting dealers to serve under me and enrich me, and no time at all selling soap; my dealer organization did the same and soon collapsed.  It&#8217;s great to build an organization, but underneath it all it&#8217;s about selling soap to customers.  It&#8217;s great to talk about planting churches, but underneath it all someone will have to make the disciples or the churches we plant will be empty except for the fool (which is me) standing in the pulpit preaching to the empty pews about the great potential of this church.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s my soapbox and my sermon to myself, so I&#8217;m a little harsh about it because I need the stern accountability.  I spent 24 years in ministry, 11 years in growing churches, and made no disciples; now I have three, and shifting paradigms has been an incredible internal struggle.</p>
<p>Dave</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/07/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1215</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jun 2006 04:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/06/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1215</guid>
		<description>Well said Phil.  You said what I was feeling but unable to express.  And also, what about renewing old churches in key locations rather then the constant modernist belief that new is always best?  

But maybe this movement is already happening right under our noses.  Maybe it is called the emerging church and it is in many places (cafes, lounges, homes, halls, galleries) near us.  It isn't so pastor/planter/professional centered.  It is more organic and less moderninst and structured.  Last year at the summit held at Wesley College there must have been 200 of these represented.  The Baptist Union of Victoria is encouraging 20 new ones themselves to begin.  Many spin out of Mike Frost's teaching at Morling in Sydney.  They could well be it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said Phil.  You said what I was feeling but unable to express.  And also, what about renewing old churches in key locations rather then the constant modernist belief that new is always best?</p>
<p>But maybe this movement is already happening right under our noses.  Maybe it is called the emerging church and it is in many places (cafes, lounges, homes, halls, galleries) near us.  It isn&#8217;t so pastor/planter/professional centered.  It is more organic and less moderninst and structured.  Last year at the summit held at Wesley College there must have been 200 of these represented.  The Baptist Union of Victoria is encouraging 20 new ones themselves to begin.  Many spin out of Mike Frost&#8217;s teaching at Morling in Sydney.  They could well be it!</p>
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		<title>By: Hismethod &#187; 1000 new churches for Australia</title>
		<link>http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/07/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1209</link>
		<dc:creator>Hismethod &#187; 1000 new churches for Australia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 12:07:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/06/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1209</guid>
		<description>[...] 1000 new Aussie churches. Who wants in? Let&#8217;s do it! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 1000 new Aussie churches. Who wants in? Let&#8217;s do it! [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/07/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1205</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 07:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/06/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1205</guid>
		<description>Depends on what you mean by 'church'. Strikes me we should be praying and working for 10,000 new committed Aussie Jesus-Followers/Kingdom-Extenders rather than 1000 new churches which may or may not make an impact for the Kingdom (and which tend to absorb a lot of time, money and effort to 'run').

A Question: is the Mission Dei to build churches or to grow people who will extend the Kingdom? And does the latter necessarily assume the former? [Yes, I know that's two questions, but please don't quibble!]

Shalom

Gordon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Depends on what you mean by &#8216;church&#8217;. Strikes me we should be praying and working for 10,000 new committed Aussie Jesus-Followers/Kingdom-Extenders rather than 1000 new churches which may or may not make an impact for the Kingdom (and which tend to absorb a lot of time, money and effort to &#8216;run&#8217;).</p>
<p>A Question: is the Mission Dei to build churches or to grow people who will extend the Kingdom? And does the latter necessarily assume the former? [Yes, I know that&#8217;s two questions, but please don&#8217;t quibble!]</p>
<p>Shalom</p>
<p>Gordon</p>
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		<title>By: philjohnson</title>
		<link>http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/07/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1204</link>
		<dc:creator>philjohnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 07:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/06/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1204</guid>
		<description>There seems to me to be some critical things absent from your list of things "we need" and all of which are embedded in Scripture but also evidenced in the Acts of the Apostles:

1. Christ-centredness and servanthood on the part of leaders; 
2. being people-friendly with an an ability to listen first before then speaking with those who are not-yet followers of Christ; 
3. understanding of cross-cultural missions principles and the Missio Dei and being capable of implementing them (Acts 17:16-34); 
4. being able to give reasons for the hope you have (1 Pet. 3:15; Acts 8:30ff, Acts 17:16-34; Acts 26)
5. being capable of forming and living in an accountable community.

I could go on but I feel strongly that zeal and sincerity are not sufficient, but must be matched with sober reflections and the cultivation of wisdom. This also includes a savvy dispostion to not fall foul of trying to reduce the Missio Dei to a formula or recipe. 

The Australian culture cannot simply be swept into church meetings of whatever stripe or venue. You need to ask soul-searching and reflective questions about the church's unpaid spiritual bills in this country that have caused a gulf between church and culture; you need to reflect on why spiritual seekers in Australia consider Christianity moribund and bankrupt and with church as the last place to go to ask questions and to explore spiritual matters; why do so many seekers instead opt for other pathways outside Christ (and it is not good enough for us to generalise and say "sin" or "the devil"). Instead of us presuming to think up reasons why people should attend our gatherings (or special speaker evangelistic events), maybe we should ask ourselves "why don't people want to attend in the first place"?

If we take a good hard look at ourselves collectively in this country we might find that we are the principal obstacle. If we look at why other religious pathways are preferred to Christianity, we might find the mirror image reflected back at us for all the things we have neglected to do (that's what I mean by the unpaid spiritual bills of the Church).

Grace and peace
Philip

It is wonderful to be excited about outreach and the passing on of good news and an expectation that God will bless our endeavours. I pray he does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There seems to me to be some critical things absent from your list of things &#8220;we need&#8221; and all of which are embedded in Scripture but also evidenced in the Acts of the Apostles:</p>
<p>1. Christ-centredness and servanthood on the part of leaders;<br />
2. being people-friendly with an an ability to listen first before then speaking with those who are not-yet followers of Christ;<br />
3. understanding of cross-cultural missions principles and the Missio Dei and being capable of implementing them (Acts 17:16-34);<br />
4. being able to give reasons for the hope you have (1 Pet. 3:15; Acts 8:30ff, Acts 17:16-34; Acts 26)<br />
5. being capable of forming and living in an accountable community.</p>
<p>I could go on but I feel strongly that zeal and sincerity are not sufficient, but must be matched with sober reflections and the cultivation of wisdom. This also includes a savvy dispostion to not fall foul of trying to reduce the Missio Dei to a formula or recipe.</p>
<p>The Australian culture cannot simply be swept into church meetings of whatever stripe or venue. You need to ask soul-searching and reflective questions about the church&#8217;s unpaid spiritual bills in this country that have caused a gulf between church and culture; you need to reflect on why spiritual seekers in Australia consider Christianity moribund and bankrupt and with church as the last place to go to ask questions and to explore spiritual matters; why do so many seekers instead opt for other pathways outside Christ (and it is not good enough for us to generalise and say &#8220;sin&#8221; or &#8220;the devil&#8221;). Instead of us presuming to think up reasons why people should attend our gatherings (or special speaker evangelistic events), maybe we should ask ourselves &#8220;why don&#8217;t people want to attend in the first place&#8221;?</p>
<p>If we take a good hard look at ourselves collectively in this country we might find that we are the principal obstacle. If we look at why other religious pathways are preferred to Christianity, we might find the mirror image reflected back at us for all the things we have neglected to do (that&#8217;s what I mean by the unpaid spiritual bills of the Church).</p>
<p>Grace and peace<br />
Philip</p>
<p>It is wonderful to be excited about outreach and the passing on of good news and an expectation that God will bless our endeavours. I pray he does.</p>
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		<title>By: John Wall</title>
		<link>http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/07/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1201</link>
		<dc:creator>John Wall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 02:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveaddison.net/2006/06/06/lets-start-1000-new-aussie-churches.html#comment-1201</guid>
		<description>Sounds great, count me in...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds great, count me in&#8230;</p>
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